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Israel/Palestine Problems
Posted: 07 December 2009 01:41 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 16 ]  
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Are you suggesting that being “brutalised” entitles one to fire rockets into sovereign territory and make regular threats of more violence? Even conduct more violence against those in your own territory, further threatening the security of your neighbours? Do you not believe that Israel has a right to exist and keep its borders safe?

No, I’m suggesting nothing of the sort, but the fact that you raise the question of missiles as if they are somehow equivalent to the atocities committed by the Israelis, who are an occupying force, shows that, whatever you claim, you aren’t taking an honest view of the situation.  I can believe that you have convinced yourself of your position but that is not the same thing about being honest about the dynamics of power.  You don’t understand Christian Aid’s position because you don’t want to look at the situation as it actually is. 

As for Israel’s right to exist.  Well Israel does exist and nobody is making any credible threat to its borders.  They took the land by force, and things are now at the stage where the clock can’t be turned back on the state of Israel. But the right of Israel to extend its borders beyond the 1967 boundaries is against international law, yet it has done just that, and still retained the support of the west. The Israeli lobby by powerful Jewish voices within western nations has seen to it that there has been no real pressure on them as they build settlement after settlement.  The poor Palestinian farmer is pushed off his land, if he resists he is brutalised by the occupying forces.

The power imbalance is obvious.  You won’t see it because you don’t want to see it.  You want to paint those who say it as anti-semitic, I think that’s disgusting.

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Posted: 07 December 2009 09:12 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 17 ]  
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As you see my position on the balance of power in the Middle East, so I feel that your position on the threat to Israel’s borders is also dishonest.  Threats are credible, and would be real if Israel didn’t defend itself (along with its liberal democracy and advanced rights for women and homosexuals) so vigorously. You tell me your position on the conflict “as it actually is”, yet you barely acknowledge any acts of injustice that come from outside Israel in the region as part of that conflict.  Regardless of our differing opinion on where power is held in the Middle East, that shoudn’t stop you from having the integrity to challenge human rights abuses and war crimes from Hamas or Hizbollah as much as you do for Israel, should it?

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Posted: 08 December 2009 06:41 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 18 ]  
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Yes I do challenge the human rights abuses of all parties.  However, Israel is an occupying power with a duty of care. Neither Hamas or Hezbollah fall into such a category. I’m also VERY vocal about the abuses of women and homosexuals within many Muslim communities, and within Christian communities too.  Also I’m critical of the same abuses from ultra orthodox Jews within Israel. NONE of these are really connected with the imbalance of power which is absolutely and unequivocally in Israel’s favour and their abuses are massive in comparison with those of the Palestinians.

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Posted: 09 December 2009 07:58 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 19 ]  
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I am glad that you are prepared to challenge human rights abuses from different parties in the Palestine-Israel conflict, Bonzo, but that wasn’t apparent to me in your earler posts, and neither does it appear to be the case with organisations such as Christian Aid. To me, the notion of duty of care extends beyond Israel towards the land it occupies, as I believe Hamas, Hizbollah, Fatah, etc also do to their own followers and the people whom they govern, which they don’t honour when they provoke their neighbours, whether that be Israel or within their own nations.  I affirm that Israel also has a primary duty of care to its own citizens, just as any nation would, although I also accept that how it defends itself is one of the main matters of contention. What I am most sure about is that the frenzied anti-Israel rhetoric by an increasing number of (mainly) middle class Christians along with bans and boycotts will do very little to bring about peace, which I have already discussed on this thread and won’t bother repeating.

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Posted: 10 December 2009 01:05 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 20 ]  
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I think that the outcry against human rights abuses and the highlighting of the fact that these have been committed far more by the Israelis than any other party, is the only thing that has a chance of staying Israel’s hand.  You’re probably right that it won’t, in itself, bring about peace, but an outcry (which is coming not only from Christian charities, but from organisations like Amnesty International and the UN) is a positive rather than a negative response.  Peace will never stand a chance while people are being oppressed and it is the Israelis that are the main (but not the only) oppressors in the conflict.  This is not a six of one, half a dozen of the other conflict.

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Posted: 15 December 2009 05:37 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 21 ]  
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this is not merely a problem of international politics, but one of internal social strife and discimination

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