Discussion Forums

Did you know that there is an organisation called Jews for Justice for Palestinians (JfJfP) ?  Well, there is, and it has information that the general media just don’t have or don’t publish.  For instance, did you know that

Israel controls all access to water in the occupied territories?  This means that settlers in the illegal settlements have all the water they need, incl. having sprinklers on their lawns, while Palestinians have to import water from a distance with considerable expenditure and trouble.

Or, did you know that a French company called Veolia operates internationally and was involved in setting up a light railway to link East (i.e. Palestinian) Jerusalem with Israel and with settlements?  However, considerable pressure on the company in other countries has led to their withdrawal from this scheme.  But Veolia is still involved in providing public transport to some settlements and for operating a landfill site in the Jordan valley, on Palestinian land, but used to dispose of the rubbish from settlements - not from Palestinian villages. 

Veolia operates in quite a number of boroughs in the UK.  For instance, they deal with street cleaning in the City of Westminster.  This gives us the opportunity to pressurise Veolia still more.

If you want to get more information about this, about the campaign re access to water and a whole host of other topics, go to http://www.jfjfp.org.uk

Dear Ilse,

Yes, I do know about “Jews for Justice for Palestinians”. Yes, I also know about Veolia in Israel/Palestine, but no, I won’t be joining any attempts to pressurise Veolia or join a consumer boycott of Israel.

There are some terrible injustices going on in Israel/Palestine at the moment, yet organisations such as JfJfP present a highly selective and one-sided view of the situation in the region. It is a narrative that has gained a momentum in an increasing number of Christian Churches, including those calling themselves “inclusive” or “progressive”.  I’ll take your point that Israel controls the water supply to the Palestinian Territories, but your point does not consider the recent violence in the Gaza Strip between Hamas and rival Islamist groups, or the frequent corruption among authorities and instability in the West Bank. I strongly doubt that simply handing control of the water supply to Palestinians would solve the problems.  Regrettably, JfJfP does not offer any solutions to the situation, except for making noise and protesting.

I find it astounding and hugely disappointing that international pressure has delayed the work on the Railway linking West and East Jerusalem and the West Bank, preventing a vital communication channel between Israelis and Palestinians and allowing a much-needed mechanism for the economic development of the Palestinian Territories.  I expect that pro-Palestinian groups are undrstandably wary about the embodiment of Israeli power that the railway represents, but to pressure the contractor into pulling out and thus undermine the development in the area is naive.  It makes me question the real motives of groups like JfJfP. 

In spite of it’s questionable human rights record towards Palestinians, Israel is a stable democracy: a place where people of many faiths and ethnicities live together, where liberal values are tolerated, and where women and LGBT people have a voice and can play a full part in society, making it unique in the Middle East. These values are sadly absent in Palestine and nearly all other areas of the Middle East.  These are just a few of a number of reasons why I cannot support groups such as JfJfP.

There have been boycotts of, protests against, and various acts of disengagment from Israel for years, but still the settlements continue to be built and Israel continues to develop economically and raise its voice. It is clear that negative action does not work in promoting lasting peace. I believe that positive engagement is a much more Christian (and much less hypocritical) response.  I encourage readers to take a look at organisations such as the New Israel Fund and the Center for Jewish-Arab Economic Development to see people actually working for social justice and equality between Jews and Arabs both in 1967-Israel and the Palestinian Territories.

Salaam,
Tim

NB: I am PCN member in the Manchester area. I take full personal responsibility for the views expressed in my post, as they do not necessarily represent those of PCN Britain.

Tim’s contribution makes it very clear that life in this world is far from perfect, but he does not consider the point that what Israel is doing to the Palestinians is totally illegal under international law.  Expropriating land and then settling its own people on it is expressly forbidden by the International Court of Justice and the Geneva Conventions.  What Palestinians do among themselves is irrelevant, even if we think it is wrong.  It is also worth adding that Arabs do not have the same rights as Jews in the state of Israel, so it is hardly a proper democracy.  If we do not object to Israel’s actions, if we continue to deal with that country as if nothing was happening, we become complicit in the illegality.  Do we want that?  It is my Christian conscience which tells me that this is not acceptable; just as it is adherence to the Jewish ethic which makes more and more Jews object to Israeli government actions.  We believe that objecting by boycotting is, actually, pro-Israel:  it is only when Israel feels the world’s disapproval that she may leave her present mistaken path. 
Ilse Boas

Thank you for your response, Ilse.

Arabs have the same rights as Jews under the law in the state of Israel; there are even Arab (and Christian) politicians and senior civil servants.  Arabs in Israel do indeed face prejudice and discrimination, and this is wrong, yet what about ethnic and religious minorities in our own country (including refugees and asylum seekers), who certainly do not enjoy full equality? Does that also mean Britain is not a “proper democracy” either?

I am certainly not denying there are violations of international law going on in Israel-Palestine, but it is not only Israelis who have broken international law in the recent history of the conflict. Firing rockets into the 1967 borders of Israel is hardly a civil act, either.  The generally pro-Palestinian “Guardian” eloquently described the situation regarding settlements today (24 August), and how sections of Israeli soceity (not the blanket “Israel” you refer to) are motivated by their religious beliefs (rather than the Likud-led government) to colonise the West Bank.  Many Israelis do not support settlements and do not understand why people want to live in them, not least the largely secular populations of cities like Tel Aviv.

There is a lot that I don’t agree with about the Israeli government, but to disengage from the people of Israel-Palestine through consumer boycotts and claim it to be “pro-Israel” is utter nonsense. It is wholly negative and an act of disengagement.  Boycotts rarely work (and have never stopped Israel from doing what it wants) and the symbolic act undermines the efforts of both Israelis, Palestinians and others who proactively work for peace and try to promote equality and Enlightenment values in the region, not least throught the organisations I named in my previous post.  I will continue to actively buy Israeli products, whether they be oranges, potatoes, or computers and mobile phones with components made (or developed) in Israel, because it would be utterly hypocritical to claim I’m making a stand for justice while I buy pistachios grown in Iran (which denies its own people free and fair elections) and all kinds of houshold goods made in China (where all kinds of hideous human rights abuses take place).

You have every right to act as your conscience dictates, yet I do not agree with your response, as you continue to present a highly selective view of the situation in Israel/Palestine. It might make the conflict more understandable, but the view of the situation presented by organisations such as JfJfP clouds the real complexity of the situation and economises the whole truth.  I certainly don’t claim to know every side to the Palestinian-Israeli conflict, but the highly politicised actions of groups such as JfJfP and their effect on a growing number of Christian Churches are hugely disturbing to me.

Life on this earth is far from perfect, but it does not help to try to deal with several problems all at once - so China and Britain are beside the point in the present discussion.

There is undisputable discrimination against Palestinians in Israel, and if it is not allowed under Israeli law, what does this say about the country and its government?  I know that at local level there is a fair amount of cooperation, but the land-grabbing goes on unabated and that is surely very real discrimination.  It has puzzled me for some time why ordinary Israelis who do not agree with their government do not take action to change it or its policy.

As for the boycott, this is only just beginning to be big enough to exert some pressure, so we cannot yet say what effect it will have.  But people do not take part in boycotts only in order to exert pressure, but also to abstain from supporting something - in this case Israel - with which they totally disagree.  It is against people’s consciences.  And if you think Israel has lost its way, to put pressure on it to change is to be for Israel: you want it to improve.

Ilse Boas

Just picked up this thread. There are atrocities on both sides - but even that ‘both’ is too simplistic. There are Jews for peace and Jews for ‘Zionism’ just as there are Palestinians for peace and Palestinians who wish to remove Israel from the map. There are Jews and Christians working together [Sabeel is another example of a positive organisation praying and working for a just settlement for all sides of the arguments]. Does this problem go back to post-1918 or post-1945, or even to Ishmael and Isaac? Whose land is it anyway? Did Moses steal it? Memories are long on every side. But I am with Ilse - one follows conscience but those who have alternative consciences are entitled to their actions as well. Individual Disengagement is an open opportunity but realistically while western governments see Israel as the buffer or even the proxy nuclear threat against Iran, then the Zionists will continue to act as they have done for the past 60 years. And the problem will not go away - regardless of action or inaction; engagement or disengagement. But one can do what conscience guides one to do - as long as it is done in peace and not by adding destruction to destruction and violence to violence. As a Follower of the Jesus Way I can no more sanction a Just War than I can condone acts of terrorism or violence… which is why I choose to disengage economically from Israel while continuing to support the many different organisations working for peace, security and justice for all. Simplistic too is the old Peace Pledge Union statement, “There is no way to peace: peace is the way.” In my opinion this is the Jesus Way.

Thank you for your eloquent response, John.

I wholeheartedly agree with you that “one follows conscience but those who have alternative consciences are entitled to their actions as well”, yet sadly, this attitude seems to be lacking from the “Palestine solidarity” movement, which seems to regard those who disagree with their campaigns and narrative of events as being against social justice, which is not the case. To only condemn Israel, while other parties are complicit in causing the continued plight of the Palestinian people (including Israel-Palestine’s neighbours), ignores the multi-facetted nature of the Palestine-Israel conflict that you refer to.  I am majorly concerned that this anti-intellectual approach has taken hold in Christian churches in the UK, particularly when this involves calls from the pulpit to boycott Israeli goods.

I fully understand why many people feel uncomfortable with buying goods made in Israel (which may or may not have connections with settlements). It is indeed a non-violent form of protest, but to me, however, a consumer boycott is not an option: it harms those organisations on the ground, such economic co-operation initiatives and work between Israeli and Palestinian trade unions.  I also feel it is hypocritical to disengage economically from the state of Israel while continuing to economically engage with other nations (namely Iran, China and USA) which continue to disregard international law and carry out human rights abuses. In short, I feel this adds “destruction to desctruction” and therefore, in my opinion, not a wholly Christlike way to act.

Tim, as we both agree: the problems of Israel/Palestine are immensely complicated and there are many [too many!] vested interests in keeping this situation ‘live’. To have an enemy is a classic neo-conservative way of keeping the population under control. Several Palestinian factions have just as much interest in keeping Israel as its ‘enemy on the door step’ as western governments and their Israeli proxy have for keeping the Palestinians as Israel’s ‘enemy on its doorstep’ [or within its borders?] There are always two sides to every story. As a follower of the Jesus Way [as I understand it]compassion is the way I judge what is happening and how I should respond to it. My major concern is that the Zionist Governments have always extended the eye for an eye principle so that one rocket fired into Israel [and that is always one too many] or one suicide bomber [and that also is always one too many] seems to be answered by a dozen eyes, along with hands, legs, bodies, etc in response. All this does is create new martyrs for the extremists wherever they may be… A pity that you do not live in or near Hertfordshire otherwise I would like to debate this with you at a meeting I have scheduled for Sunday afternoon 20th September!

ARTICLE.

I’m afraid I have little time for the Israelis. While there is, of course, wrongdoing on both sides, it is incumbent on Israel, as an occupying force, to respect the human rights of those whose land they occupy.  The power dynamic is entirely in the Israelis’ favour and they choose, as John Churcher says, to take 10 eyes for an eye.  Why does a radical government exist in Palestine?  Because the acts of Israel and the inaction of the rest of the world have created it.

Bonzo - 27 October 2009 01:34 PM

ARTICLE.

I’m afraid I have little time for the Israelis. While there is, of course, wrongdoing on both sides, it is incumbent on Israel, as an occupying force, to respect the human rights of those whose land they occupy. The power dynamic is entirely in the Israelis’ favour and they choose, as John Churcher says, to take 10 eyes for an eye. Why does a radical government exist in Palestine? Because the acts of Israel and the inaction of the rest of the world have created it.

Apologies for repeating any arguments here. I think there are a few things to be considered: Firstly, the difference between Israeli society at large, in all its diversity of ethnicities, religions and Jewish denominations, and the actions of a Likud-led government in coalition with ultra-conservative parties tied to the settlement movement. Secondly, the politics of the whole region, with its many players, alliances, and power struggles, way beyond an either/or Israel-Palestine binary. The notion of “Israel created Hamas/Hizbollah/radicalism (delete as appropriate)” doesn’t quite wash with me as one will find on closer analysis that there is a lot more to it, that doesn’t translate into a snappy slogan. On the same basis, it could be argued that it was western anti-Semitism, motivated by Christian replacement theology, that created the Zionist movement in the 19th century. I expect most would agree with me that it’s rather simplistic, but perhaps not without truth.

It’s a simplistic view of the Palestine-Israeli conflict, that Israel is only bad and the Palestinians are only innocent, that seems mainly to play into the hands of nationalist Israeli (and right-wing American and European) politicians, aiding the persecution complex they present and instill in their supporters, yet in itself does very little to actually engage for peaceful co-existence on the ground. The Western Christian church (particularly the contingent claiming to be radical) needs to move beyond the increasingly frenzied and ugly anti-Israel indignation and develop a truly peacemaking, proactive engagement, at every level of Israeli, Palestinian, and wider Middle Eastern societies. When we only have little time for one group as opposed to another, we risk losing the broadest perspective on such a volatile and multi-layered conflict, adding to the unnecessary suffering.

When we try to steer a ‘middle course’ in a conflict which is patently one-sided we have lost any truthful persepective and are playing into the hands of those who inflict unnecessary suffering. Just to recap, there is wrong committed on both sides, there are people working for good on both sides, but the power dynamic is entirely skewed towards the Israelis whose government (with the backing of a majority of the people) use it to brutal effect against ordinary people.

I disagree (as you might expect).  You say there is wrong committed on both sides, and good is being done on both sides, yet you also say the conflict is patently one-sided.  I disagree that the power balance is held by the Israelis, considering the politics of the whole region, but that’s another debate entirely. There are also much more than two sides to the Israel-Palestine conflict.  Surely the variety of views on the conflict one can see from a distance makes for a more truthful (if less emotive) perspective than choosing one side over another?  I bleieve that adopting one side’s narrative while rejecting others narrows our perspective, blinding us to more uneccessary suffering.

I disagree that the power balance is held by the Israelis

I honestly don’t know how you can say that. I can’t see it as anything but a dishonest perspective.

I mentioned nothing about adopting one side’s narrative while rejecting others.  What I was talking about was being honest about the power imbalance and the levels of wrongdoing.  Look at the casualty figures for the recent killing spree in Gaza for an example.

I guess we’ll have to agree to disagree on the power balance question, Bonzo.  I have no problem with you disagreeing, but you omitted to quote the rest of my sentence “...considering the politics of the whole region”.  A look at Iran and Saudi Arabia would go some way towards expaining why Israel is the fifth largest military power in the world.  There we find not only fully equipped militaries, but frequent provocations regarding Israel’s existence from its religious and civil leaders.  It raises the question of how far the power balance really is tipped towards Israel.  Sadly, “Christian Aid News”, “The Star in the East” and journals of many other Christian organisations won’t share that fairly plain detail.

I don’t deny that the Israeli government and military are guilty of wrongdoing. Far from it, as I have explained before.  Killing is wrong, no matter how many times or who carries it out.  Yet to focus only on one side of the killing deflects our attention from problems caused by other parties in the conflict. To only complain about Israel’s brute force does not explain why it reacts so strongly or what it is defending. I have a problem with the Israeli military’s actions, too, but I also have a problem with the silence by many Christian groups on the injustices casused by other parties in the conflict.  The article link below introduces some of the areas I feel the Christian church should broaden its attention to.

http://www.ekklesia.co.uk/node/10054

Yes there are other parties and they are not helping a complex situation.  But that doesn’t alter the fact that the Palestinians are a people brutalised by the Israelis, and the imbalance of power is massively in the Israeli’s favour and has been for many decades, meanwhile the Israelis continue to steal Palestinian land.  If Israel was in a position of weakness it would not be able to do this.  If Israel was a nation wishing to make peace it would not do it.  The power to change things lies in Israel’s hands, it’s not as if the Palestinians can say to the Israelis, “give us back what you have taken and there can be peace” because whether the Palestinians retaliate or not, their land will still be stolen daily.

I still think that you’re coming at this from a position of dishonesty.  Why do you think that organisations like Christian Aid adopt the position they do?

Bonzo: I assure I offer you nothing less than my honest opinion, even if you don’t agree with my expalination.

I don’t think the question of power balance is particularly valid, when different sides are able to kill and perform violent attack. Are you suggesting that being “brutalised” entitles one to fire rockets into sovereign territory and make regular threats of more violence? Even conduct more violence against those in your own territory, further threatening the security of your neighbours? Do you not believe that Israel has a right to exist and keep its borders safe?

I don’t understand why Christian Aid won’t condemn Hamas and its committment to destroy Israel, or to fire rockets from civillian areas, or the Palestinian Authority for its rampant corruption, or Palestine’s Arab neighbours for not allowing Palestinian refugees to live and work in their territories if they choose to?  Who’s position is so dishonest?

As I have said repeatedly, Criticism of Israeli government and military action is completely valid, as is scrutiny into its many abuses of human rights. Yet to do this when referring to the Arab-Israeli conflict without condemning injustices through other parties is not only disingenuous, but immoral.  This selectivism leans towards that age-old sorry tradition of Christians scapegoating Jews for various problems; one of the myriad sins of Christendom towards its Jewish neighbours. It is just one reason why efforts by British Christians to one-sidedly condemn Israel, ban, and boycott it fall on deaf ears among most Israelis. As a person of faith in the Christian tradition, I wish to play no part in reviving that regrettable tradition.